Lightning vs. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Aukey-Hi-speed-Reversible-Connector-Supported/dp/B00RGNJXD4/ref=sr_1_1?amp;amp;qid=1421386415&amp;sr=8-1&tag=thepartim-20&ie=UTF8&amp;peasin=B00RGNJXD4&amp;keywords=B00RGNJXD4&amp;pebp=1421386732649">USB-C cable from Aukey</a>
We’ve been poring over Apple’s change to the 8.4mm by 2.6mm USB Type C standard since we got tipped the design of the new MacBook late last year. It is a big change for Apple and puts the future of longstanding technologies like Thunderbolt and MagSafe into questionable status. Even Lightning seems a whole lot more vulnerable when an adapter that is marginally bigger, but has the whole industry behind it, shows up in Apple’s future flagship laptop.
Some quick, fun facts on USB Type C that make it pretty amazing:
- In its current form it can deliver up to 100W (20 volts and 5 amps). That’s more than any current MagSafe adapter including the 85W that the 15″ MacBook Pro uses. Compare that to the Mac Pro at 450W or iPad Air 2’s 12W. USB C could even (and likely will one day) power the 85W Mac mini.
Perhaps most interesting: USB-C power is reversible. So theoretically, your iPad could charge your Mac! (That doesn’t make up for the MagSafe’s ability to get yanked out and not kill your MacBook). - USB Type C can deliver 10 Gbps transfer rate. That’s the same as Thunderbolt 1 and faster than most SSDs by an order of magnitude. This makes the more expensive Thunderbolt almost unnecessary in all but the highest end 2.0 configurations and will likely send it the way of Firewire—an expensive edge technology.
- New reversible USB Type C will offer full DisplayPort functionality. This kind of kills the “What about Thunderbolt?” argument for the consumer level. VESA says initial DisplayPort Alt Mode USB Type C devices will use the current DisplayPort 1.2a, which supports 5.4 Gbps per lane and up to 4K (4096 x 2160) resolutions at a 60Hz frame rate. That means we’ll likely see future USB Type C also support the recently announced DisplayPort 1.3 standard that offers a higher 8.1 Gbps per-lane link rate and as a result support for next-gen 5K displays.
- It is backwards compatible with all of the billions (trillions?) of USB, USB 2, USB 3 devices out there and it is reversible/easy to plug in and almost as small as Micro-USB or Lightning.
- In hindsight, it seems like a no-brainer.
There will be detractors of the new standard like everything that Apple has done and, in the short term, you’ll need to load up on USB Type C adapters for your devices. The new MacBook should at least come with a DisplayPort/HDMI/VGA and a traditional USB adapter.
Additionally, the aged Thunderbolt Display that Apple currently somehow still offers for $999 might turn into a 4-5K USB-Type C Display. We are already seeing Apple peripheral makers going to USB C including portable flash drives.
I would expect Apple to update its MacBook Pros to the new standard as early as WWDC, but the incremental updates to the Pro and Air line this week make me think it is further away. Also, I haven’t seen a USB-C to Lightning adapter yet.
Nokia N1 with USB Type C
By next year, I would expect all new Macs to have USB Type C. I would expect Apple displays (if they keep doing displays) to be USB-Type C based. I would expect Lightning cables and most of the industry to move that direction too. The question in my mind is: Will Apple keep Lightning or are you looking at the next iPhone connector as well?
Below a gallery of the Aukey USB Type C cable vs. a Micro-USB vs. an Apple Lightning cable
-
- End to end Lightning -USB-C
-
- Lightning, Micro-USB, USB-C
-
- Lighting, USB-C
-
- Lightning USB-C
-
- Lightning, USBC
-
- Top View
-
- Lightning, Micro, USB-C
FTC: We use income earning auto affiliate links. More.
Nitpick which has nothing to do with the content of the article: you “pore” over something when you’re studying it carefully and thoroughly, unless you actually have a liquid which you’re transferring from one thing to another. In that case it’s pouring.
thnaks. I was using the British spelling :P
as opposed to the American English spelling?
And it is Aluminium folks! Loved seeing aluminum on the screen and Sir Jonny saying it PROPERLY with the voice over!
@silas681: Actually they flubbed the writing of it “Aluminum” but Ive did say it correctly at least.
But then he’s English. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of an English person that decided all of a sudden to pronounce everything wrong the way the Americans do. Why would they?
Err, ‘pore’ is the only spelling we’d use in this context as well.
To all our British “friends” who say Americans spell and pronounce Aluminium incorrectly, might I suggest that next time you do some research before opening your big pie holes. Both are correct. You have yours, we have ours. You say colour. We say color. You say aluminium, we say aluminum. Neither is wrong.
P.S. And I thought we Americans were the arrogant ones. LOL
P.P.S. On second thought, perhaps this was just your British humor. If so, you’re forgiven.
At least Johny Ive is not a snob, like a lot of other folks from the UK would seem to be. Pedantic twits are tiring.
I think that USB type-C is good, but I cannot fathom moving away from Mag Safe. In my opinion, it’s one of the best things Apple has done in terms of laptops. It’s absolutely fantastic and has saved my Air (and my Pro before that) so many times.
Agree, I would sorely miss Magsafe. The best thing would be to adopt USB-C and then make a stub adapter that would plug into your C port and give you a mag-safe port on the outside. This would be the best of both worlds, as you could still run the computer from any C power cord available in a pinch, but if you’re willing to buy a mag-safe adapter you could use it most of the time to gain the safety it provides.
I think as battery life becomes better this is not so much of an issue. With a 10 hour battery life you spend little time working and charging. So the likelihood of tripping is very low.
Agreed. I think people need to learn to charge at night and deal with it. If USB-C was magnetic now that would be a cable to rule them all!
Apple realized by omitting the Mag Safe they can sell more laptops, broken laptops sell more laptops. Just like the omitted the lock port. Again a stolen laptop sells more laptops. One port is less cost and you most likely send people buy the $15 splitters, adapters, and cables from them to boot. Don’t be surprised when the next iphone and ipads will have a USB-c as well.
How do they sell more laptops by omitting MagSafe? I’m less inclined to buy a laptop with an insertion point for power, not more. The part that would need to be fixed if it broke? Cheap, quick, and simple repair.
As far as the lock port… I was a repair tech at an Apple Store for 5 years. The number of lock ports I saw that were actually regularly used was… staggeringly low. It was extra space taken up and an extra port on the laptop that was unused by easily 95%+ of the machines that came through. I never used it, and my laptop has never been stolen. I just don’t leave it lying around anywhere and everywhere.
USB-C will not come to iOS devices in the near future because it takes up MORE space inside the device.
Take your trolling elsewhere?
Presumably USB-C has an inline logic chip to help the host determine what the connected device is? If so, does USB-C have the ability to identify manufacturer, encrypt and lock to specific uses as the Lightning cable does?
It probably wouldn’t be able to tell if it was certified or not, but then again Apple said they were involved in the development of C, so who knows. Maybe so?
Perhaps not, but I’m sure the Apple USB-C->Lightning adapter could.
Yes, devices can ‘see’ each other. In the words of the USB-IF, the body responsible for making USB C. This is how devices which direction power should run, if any.
While there has been Firewire to Thunderbolt Adaptors and Docks there’s not likely to be Thunderbolt to USB-C given the technology involved.
If Thunderbolt were scaled back or dropped it would be a serious problem for those with an expensive investment in Thunderbolt only devices.
Why only compare it to Thunderbolt 1 but not Thunderbolt 2?
My guesses as to why Apple is moving away from MagSafe and to USB-C: 1) USB-C should allow for faster charging times, 2) Apple probably saves some amount of money, 3) As battery life has gotten better and closer to the “all day” model, a USB-C device would only need to be charged overnight and reduce the number of accidents with cords.
That said – maybe in a generation or two all six of those MacBook batteries will be wirelessly charged, meaning that the USB-C connector would only exist for connectivity purposes rather than charging.
Intel has wireless charging on their road map for later this year, so your statement seems pretty in line.
http://iq.intel.com/wireless-charging-breathes-new-life-devices/
I don’t get why Apple would release a portable with only 1 port! Even though it’s a multi-tasking fair, it’s still smacks of over-optimism, under-estimation and short-sightedness. If some poorly made third-party peripheral blows the port, you’re looking at wireless as your only means of transfer & not for long either, as you won’t be able to charge up.
MagSafe FTW.
Thought the same thing. I would rather not have the 3.5 mm headphone jack and have another port o the side. Or better yet include NFC in the computer and then you could just transfer your data through Bluetooth, NFC would connect the devices for you (essentially a wireless USB like?) then the connection would be over Bluetooth.
Ever heard of Airdrop ? Cause that’s pretty much what you described with you wireless USB…
Consider that maybe this particular portable isn’t targeted at you! Perhaps this is for people who use Bluetooth input devices and rarely use USB and would prefer a thinner computer. Surely there are other Apple devices you don’t personally own because they don’t meet your needs :)
I would be shocked if Apple moved to include only one port on their entire lineup. They have never done that. They have for a dozen years made smaller computers with fewer ports/features and larger, more “loaded” computers with many ports built in. As a consumer, you aren’t forced to buy the ultraportable, are you?
When not in the office, I don’t use any USB ports other than to charge my iPhone occasionally (and given my Mac is a work laptop, I don’t like the two to really sync).
While in the office, I imagine a USB-C dock would make things even easier.
Still it’d be nice to have more ports. I expect the new MP Pro will come with more ports.
Sounds to me that the upcoming Skylake processors will upset all the current connector standards, including it support for wireless charging!
They certainly will not wireless charging everywhere is 8 years away.
Hey Seth, is there such a thing as a USB-C hub that will allow simultaneous charging + data access? Is that even supported on this standard?
yep, just like current USB hubs
but there doesn’t seem to be any on the market just yet… other than Apple’s dongle that offers a mere 1-more USB-C, HDMI and old-school USB port. I’m hoping for a little hub that has (4) type-C USB 3.1 ports and (4) USB 3.0 type-A plugs.
1 type-C goes to the Macbook or any other PC, 1 goes to the wall for AC power. The others are used for whatever other accessories you want or have, backwards compatible too (webcam, external storage, daisy chaining MiniDP monitors and/or HDMI displays, smartphones for syncing/charging, etc.)!
I know the standard supports it, just can’t wait for the products to be there. And there’s plenty of power, so that single power cable to the wall (via USB-C) powers the hub, laptop and all accessories without an extra cords hanging about.
Also I can’t wait for this to be a thing of the past… :) http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/lLcxrwG.png
The little plastic fin in the middle… This is why the Lightning connection is vastly superior for mobile devices that are constantly getting plugged in/unplugged. I’m fine with a Type C connector for relatively static connectors (i.e. laptop on a desk at home, desktops), but for fumbling around at my nightstand/in the car/at my desk at work/etc… I hope it’s sturdier than past connectors (see: Apple’s 30-Pin connector)
I used to work as a repair technician for a cell phone repair company. We always saw people with mangled up charge ports on both iPhone and Android, it was rare to see a lightning port messed up but it was much better than all other connectors. The plastic in the middle on Micro USB and the 30 Pin would break and then the connection points within the port would get all messed up and then it would need replacement. I agree, the Lightning port is great and much better than everything else. I wish Apple had sold the rights and made that the USB C standard. Then it would have been a much better standard. Apple would regulate the charge ports, then all charge ports on phones, tablets, computers, etc that used it would be able to be repaired very easily since they would share the same port. For android, they have the same port (micro USB) but every housing and the feet on them is different making them interchangable between devices. Apple would have made one port with same housing and feet layout along with same pin layout and used for all, making repairs easy and simple. I hope that since USB C is able to go in anyway it will not allow the plastic to break as easily since that was the main cause of damaged charge ports (putting the charging cable in upside down or too much strain put on the port). If it doesn’t pose a big problem then I guess it’s okay, but it still has flaws that can cause it to stop working, which every port has but the Lightning in my opinion is better, it’s smaller and the design is much better.
Looking at the new MacBook tear-apart pics that Apple posted, the USB-C power board is a self-contained part; they CLEARLY are expecting to replace a lot of these, and designed the MacBook to be able to do so inexpensively. Pretty obviously, they foresee the problems. That certainly doesn’t make the design idea better in my book.
I’d prefer to have seen one of three solutions, all of which I feel are better than what the MacBook got:
1. Wireless charging – given Phil Shiller’s bullshit response to a wireless charging question a while back, I question if Apple is even really working on the tech; I think it more likely they’re waiting until it comes to them, which sucks. The MacBook, iPhone, and iPad all would gain tremendously from some form of wireless charging, even it is only trickle charging (might take 4 or 6 hours to charge completely…while you sleep, say). Many Android competitors support inductive charging already. Wireless trickle charging is a holy grail that Apple still hasn’t done anything on.
2. USB-C and headphone on one side and MagSafe on the other – The MagSafe connector is bigger than the USB-C by a bit, but it -would- have fit in the spot. And there is zero reason the current USB-C board couldn’t have also housed a 3.5mm mini-jack, it would have squeezed in there easily, in about the same footprint width as a MagSafe (to provide a symmetry). Then allow charging from either connector.
3. This is something I think we could still see, perhaps even from Apple within/for the next refresh: a MagSafe inspired charging dongle with a USB-C receptacle on one end and a USB-C charge-only plug on the other that is coupled to the dongle by way of magnet, ALA MagSafe. The idea would be: if you accidentally yank the cord, the plug breaks free of the dongle and gets “stuck” in the MacBook. You’d not be able to just “get it out”, but when you re-attached the MagSafe dongle it would pull out just like a regular cable. I think there would require some neat-o magnet engineering, which is a field Apple has excelled at (hence my thought we might actually see it). And it could be done; the magnets would have be designed to exert a greater tensile force than shearing force, with greatest force under slow action. MagSafe connectors are already pretty close now (for example: try to pull a MagSafe straight back out of the socket, it is strong; but pull the cord up or down and the connection breaks much more easily; likewise, yank the cord versus pulling very slowly). For users that don’t connect to peripherals often, the tip could even be left in the device regularly. It is a possibility that Apple could finally license or sell the MagSafe patent portfolio off to a third-party accessory maker–Griffin? Anker?–to make this happen. Even if the connector only carries a subset of the 100W, it would work for the MacBooks. Also, by licensing the tech out, Apple could profit from it getting into the hands of competitor hardware users (since they’ve already given up MagSafe as a competitive advantage, why not?) as well as benefit from its availability to its own customers. And maybe do the same with a cable with a Lighting tip?
Are you sure micro USB wasn’t getting messed up because it wasn’t reversible and therefore was getting bad use?
There were ample reasons for Apple to use USB C on the new MacBook, as it provides all connectivity requirements in one, slim port.
There is NO incentive for Apple to ditch the Lightning connector…
At some point in the future iPhone chargers will switch the current USB socket for a USB C and will come with a USB C —→ Lightning cable. End of story.
I see Apple giving you a power brick with USB C and a 1m long lightning to C cable (replacing the USB 2.0 power brick and Lightning to USB 2.0 currently used) and then they would also giving you a USB 2.0 to lightning cable that is a few inches long when you buy any iPhone/iPad. This would give people without USB C the ability to connect to their computer with the short cable, and then it would give apple the ability to give you a USB C to lightning if you have C and start to go down that road to transferring everything to C. This is a bigger deal than 30 pin to lightning so I see them trying to help you out a little. The C to lightning would be the cable you use to charge your phone and everything and with the computer if you have C and then the short cable would be used for the people only without C to just connect to their computer.
So, if I want to use my macbook with an external monitor and also have it plugged in to charge at the same time is that even possible? Or at a hotel, charging macbook overnight, while charging iphone off the macbook?
Yes there is a dongle. Or hopefully the display will have the charger in it and charge your computer through the USB C and you won’t even have to worry about it. Then you won’t need the power brick!
Didn’t the EU pass a law that every charger sold for all EU cell phones had to have a USB connection moving forward? I assumed that was why Apple was doing this. Thank you EU.
That was a little while back. To get around it Apple sold a micro USB to lightning cable? That’s about a few centimeters tall. And plus it’s Apple, they do what they want.
Every iPhone charger already has a USB connection.
I think that was only for phones, not laptops. And I also seem to remember that the regulation specified micro-USB, and not this connector or interface. Maybe EU will update its regulation ?
Does USB-C remove the ability to incorporate viruses into the cables themselves?
Interesting concern.
I guess, if you aren’t careful with the power sources, you’re liable to potentially get an accidental “hidden USB keyboard” that could have a key logger or other type of malware. Minor point, but something to note.
This definitely was not a concern with magsafe – at least I could charge from strangers’ magsafes… though to be honest that never happened.
Minor concern, but I guess don’t be promiscuous with your charging habits?
My guess is a future Apple display won’t require a physical connection at all — it will connect to your Mac via AirPlay
I know I may sound stupid, but I didn’t get how would I connect the MacBook to a 4k display (I’ve just bought a Dell P2415Q display). The MacBook specs says it supports 4k, which is great. And it says it has “Native DisplayPort 1.2 video output”, that is the part I didn’t quite get. Ok, USB-C has DisplayPort support, but will there be a ‘USB-C to DisplayPort’ cable/adapter (that is not for sale yet)?
If anyone could make that clear for me, as if I was a 6 year old child, I’d be very thankful!
Does the HDMI spec get there yet? There is a USB-C to HDMI dongle but that might not be enough.
Alternatively, they’re working on a USB-C to Thunderbolt dongle but haven’t announced it. I certainly expect there to be one of these.
Lightning port & cable #RIP
Lighting is well and alive. Thunderbolt looks like it just went the way of Firewire.
I guess that will be the solution until 2018-2020 when wireless chargning will be very common. I am not sure which I prefer – generally I don’t like cables, I like everything to be clean and neat. On the other hand, though, everything that goes “through” the air is not the best thing for your health (yeah, wi-fi internet sucks in terms of health over the one that comes from the wall/cable!). But I assume that’s the future. So in the next 3 to 5 years we’ll have that USB-C port, then maybe USB-C 2 which will be at least 50% up from the current model… and then just switch to powerful wireless charging/data transfer.
To answer this, I think we need to see why Apple kept the 30-pin iPod connector for as long as it did. While a larger connector, the dedicated pins provided accessory makers with the ability to create accessories without needing USB device drivers. Lightning, while needing more intelligent design, still is easier to work with than USB devices. I don’t see them dropping Lightning for iOS anytime soon.
Meanwhile, I would not want to give up MagSafe connectors. My cats have already pulled out my power cable numerous times while traversing around me. I’d hate to have a broken MacBook because I don’t have a MagSafe connector.
The article is missing the difference between what the spec allows/supports, and the way it is actually implemented in specific hardware in the new MacBook. Getting ahead of yourself. For example,
1. Yes, the USB3.1 specs allow “up to 100W” to be supplied. I don’t see that here. (For that matter, good luck trying to find a shipping product in the general PC market that is near that.) I’m curious on how much power this model supports.
2. Even though this is a type C port from the USB 3.1 spec, it runs in “Gen 1” mode. So equivalent to USB 3.0 5gbps nominal speed. I think this is a great solution (type c with 5gbps) compared to the state of the market alternatives, but some people are assuming more than is really there.
The spec says the power brick spec is 29 W. I guess that’s not at 5 V as 6 A on those tiny connectors seems a bit much. I don’t know what fancy goodies are included with USB-C but higher voltage would seem to be an option.
“The question in my mind is: Will Apple keep Lightning or are you looking at the next iPhone connector as well?”
Apple has consistently making devices thinner and changing from Lightning to USB-C would restrict how much thinner and smaller they could make the device. It’s pretty clear that there USB-C will not be the next iPhone connector.
making => made
I do think were looking at the future of iOS connectors. We’ll see USB C across all electronics, desktop, laptop and mobile. I think you’ll start to see devices that charge at higher speeds too.
The USB-IF has said that USB C is future-proofed. It’s hardware is currently capable of going up to 20gbps bidirectional, and has the ability to use both lanes to achieve 40gbps – it does this by using both lanes, so it is capped in one direction. With the chipsets in the cables, it will intelligently determine if it can use both lanes.
Most excitingly the USB-IF has said that USB C cables and connectors allow for alternate modes. This means that Apple and Intel can take their Thunderbolt PCIe based code and apply it to USB C cables to increase speeds and functionality. Alternate modes are how USB C delivers video. Alternative modes are how Type C does anything outside of the 3.1 standard.
Everyone here, including this article’s author should read this: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/09/reversible-tiny-faster-hands-on-with-the-usb-type-c-plug/
Lightning is a much sturdier connector than USB-C Lightning has 16 times as many insertions in it’s specs as USB-C Apple will keep Lightning for Mobile. Apple will eventually drop Lightning and move to wireless charging, Bluetooth, Mobile Carrier and WIFI only.
This reminds me last time the iPad 4 update within 6 months due to the change of lightning cable. I think same may goes to MacBook lineup. To become an industrial standard, someone big has to be the first.
Can i make a prediction/wish? The transformer brick on the new machines will be shipped with the required ports built into it; USB, DVI, VGA, whatever. That would mean you can plug your legacy equipment in permanently at home and do a single connect when you get in. I’m certainly down for that sort of portability.
I was not ready to accept another extra cable standard, we have already plenty, and really, thunderbolt does the trick very fast and very reliable.
What about the disadvantages of USB, are they still included with this new C standard ?
MagSafe’s attachment / separation from the computer is way too convenient and safe to be left behind. The damn thing is just TOO GOOD to become history.
Ive needs to factor this in somehow…
I do wonder if there’s a way (regarding magnetic interference) to make a USB connector where devices attach magnetically. Basically, a magnetically-attached USB-C, with no male-female ends and with just enough “grooving” to help alignment.
I see USB C replacing USB 3.0 ports on other Macs, but, Thunderbolt is here to stay, capable of PCI-E expansion, which USB C is not. Also Thunderbolt will be able to drive 5K and 8K displays, and you can get optical cables for long distances (33′-200′), and higher two-way data speeds.
As far as USB C over Lightning? Not sure about that one, especially since it appears it will take up more room in small devices than lightning connectors…the smaller space occupied by lightning connectors inside and outside iOS devices was THE main reason for the lightning connector.
“USB C could even (and likely will one day) power the 85W Mac mini.”
No way. Absolutely no way that would happen. Apple worked hard to get to the point where the power supply was in the machine. What would they gain by moving it out again?
iMac power consumption is so low right now, that Apple could conceivably power the iMac over USB-C. But will they? Of course not, because that would be stupid. There’s too much simplicity and convenience in just having a single straight cable from the machine to the mains. The idea of the Mac Mini also getting its power over a USB-C port is equally stupid.
Think about it. Every Apple product that’s not battery powered has an internal power supply. The desktop Macs, the Mac mini, the Apple TV, the Airport routers. Every other TV accessory or wireless router has a wall-wart, and Apple doesn’t. That’s for a reason. There’s no way Apple would compromise on that just because it’s possible to do with USB-C.
“I would expect Lightning cables and most of the industry to move that direction too.”
My guess is that, long term, Apple really wants to go with wireless charging for all devices. The ideal would probably be something like a charging pad with a certain rated wattage which could charge everything from your aWatch to your MacBook Pro, even all at the same time if you could arrange them properly. (Of course using the low-wattage charger for your MacBook Pro might make the charge times pretty long, but ideally, it would work.)
For this to happen, inductive charging (at least in its current Qi-style form) is not good enough, because it requires fairly precise placement of the device on the charging mat. (And I suspect it has no intelligence in the system to handle things like charging two different devices on the same mat.) The aWatch uses inductive charging, but also uses a magnetic connector, I’m guessing to line things up easily without too much hassle.
Resonant charging supposedly improves the situation, allowing for much less precise device placement, but also appears not yet quite ready to ship. (And the first versions may not provide the goals I’ve described, from a wide dynamic power power range, to multiple device support.)
Point is: if this is where Apple wants to go, and if that goal is attainable in three or four years, then does switching iDevices to USB-C before then make sense? The optimal thing to do (in terms of marketing at least) would seem to be something like providing a big splash in 2019 (or whenever) by announcing every successive device as using the same charging pad. At the same time, you can then switch Lighting to USB-C 10Gbps, and it will seem like an organic change that makes sense giving the new power model. (You COULD still offer charging via the USB-C port — maybe that makes sense, and is easy, cheap and doesn’t take much space; or maybe it’s too much hassle.)
Apple has been one of the companies driving the development of USB-C and so as Logitech so i believe it will be the consumer port and thunderbolt will replace mobile pci and pci-e be intel and apple are now working with the pci consortium in development….
Anybody seen any terardowns of Apple’s new adapters? All pins connected and all cords to support gen2?
Wow. Now with the new Apple Keyboard and Trackpad, if I have a Macbook (the new one with the USB C) how am I going to charge it.
USB to USB C ok.
USB to Lighting
But USB C to Lighting …. that is a totally niche affair.