Apple’s car team
Speculation regarding Apple’s plans to build an electric car has been at an all-time over recent months. Earlier this year, we broke down the team that Apple has assembled to work on its car, several members of which were poached from Tesla. In Tesla’s Q1 2015 earnings call, however, CEO Elon Musk commented on Apple’s alleged electric car plans and the poaching war that has been ongoing between the two companies.
Regarding Apple’s plans to build an electric car, Musk said that he “hopes” Apple will enter the car market and that it will be “great” if it does. Musk made similar comments earlier this year when addressing the reports that Apple had approached Tesla about a potential acquisition. Musk, of course, would not comment about specific talks between the two companies.
Musk also today addressed the ongoing poaching war between Tesla and Apple by essentially saying that there isn’t a war, but if there was, Tesla would be winning it. Musk noted that Tesla has not seen any “significant attrition” of engineers to Apple. Tesla, on the other hand, has recruited “five times as many people” from Apple as Apple has from Tesla.
“I certainly hope Apple gets into the car business. That would be great. But we’re not seeing any significant attrition of engineers to Apple, for anything. Cars or otherwise. Anyone can find this out by going on LinkedIn. If you look at the trailing 12 months, Tesla has recruited something like five times as many people from Apple as Apple has from Tesla.”
A report earlier this year claimed that Apple is planning to launch its own car by 2020. Whether or not that turns out to be true remains to be seen, but nevertheless, Apple now has support from one of the brightest minds in the world for its car initiative.
CTO JB Straubel says that Tesla would welcome Apple into the electric car business (1:03:20) http://t.co/S2VxNibdxI pic.twitter.com/QAzIvKoggW
— 9to5Mac (@9to5mac) April 5, 2015
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So is the argument that Apple can only build an EV by poaching lots of employees from Tesla? Why is Musk and the media so obsessed with this?
Musk is obviously worried. He knows what Apple can do and he knows that his car is a very niche product that doesn’t actually move the innovation dial very much.
That is what you honestly believe? To funny…
@ Colby: Well, if you look into it you will see mountains of evidence to the effect that I am right. On the other hand, if you just want to believe what you read in the tech press, then go ahead.
Also, that should be “too right,” and not “to right.” One means “additional” and one refers to direction.
It’s the beginning for Tesla. In the future they’ll be selling affordable electric vehicles and be far ahead of the competition, until Apple releases theirs. Currently batteries cost far too much for them to make it very affordable I think, hence why they’re building the gigafactory.
How did you come away from that clipping with him being worried?
You’re looking at this in a shallow corp. vs. corp way. Musk truly, honestly, deeply wants car makers to stop making cars that run directly on fossil fuels. He’s said many times he wants competition and he wants other companies to introduce “Tesla killers”. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2015/01/14/electric-car-rivals-like-the-tesla-killer-are-exactly-what-elon-musk-wants/
The media is obsessed because they want more viewership and writing an article about Apple achieves this.
I think with the recent loss posted by Tesla, they should be more worried about not running out of money first.
It’s a loss only because Tesla is playing the long term game. Don’t just look at the numbers and ignoring what Tesla is doing. They are building giant battery factories in the US and are emassing a fleet of their supercharging stations worldwide. You think they are doing this for fun?
Elon Musk is starting to sound like Michael Dell. Tesla is THE place to be because they are poaching employees from Apple and Apple is doomed because of it. Right.
Where did Elon musk say that apple is doomed??
So Telsa has poached 5x insignificant number of people from Apple. I think 5x insignificant is pretty insignificant to Apple.
Quality over quantity.
Tesla may want to boast about bigger defections but unless those previous Apple employees were major contributors to Apple’s previous and current success than more isn’t better, it’s just more.
My guess is Apple’s looking for difference-makers and key personnel rather than just giving a job to anyone with an Apple bus pass.
Stop guessing.
Tesla is NOT a “car company” they are a battery company. Worse than that, they are a “battery management software/firmware” company in fact.
This is the entire extant of their “innovation” in the automotive field.
I think Apple will literally wipe the floor with Tesla if they ever come out with a car even though I have a very low opinion of what Apple might do in the automotive field.
I don’t think Apple would have their targets set on Tesla. Wiping the floor with Detroit would be the first step.
For historical reference for the significance of Tesla, read up on how Henry Ford transformed the automobile industry.
To even imply for a laugh, that Tesla will have or has had the same kind of impact on car design, automotive history, or (more importantly in the case of Ford) factory design and economic theory than Ford is just insane. Laughably insane.
Ford’s contributions were so immense he spawned an entire industry as well as terms like “Fordism.” Tesla is a guy who dreamed up the idea that you could put a giant laptop battery in a luxury sedan and rich Californians would buy it for outrageous prices.
There is nothing innovative about his car. It’s a very typical luxury sedan product similar to every other luxury sedan ever built. Nothing Telsa has done with their cars hasn’t been done by many other electric car companies many times before. The battery itself is literally a giant laptop battery and involves no new chemistry etc. The main innovation is the battery management system and the idea of using a giant laptop battery in the first place.
Fun fact:
The first electric car was built in 1880
Given that there is NO innovative thought behind creating an electric car (as it has been done well over 125 years ago) I ask you where the actual innovation lies?
Batteries surely still are the biggest problem when comparing cost to benefits.
So the true innovation will perhaps lie with whomever comes up with a battery that has the minimum of the following specifications:
– Charge SUPER fast over normal power sockets
– Keep charge for well over 500 km (312,5miles)
– Be environmentally friendly (currently batteries are still just as bad for the environment as gas/diesel to produce and therefor don’t make a difference just yet).
Now I do know there are batteries under development that will most likely cover these points or even surpass them but they are still some ways away from realisation.
In any case I wouldn’t call Tesla or Elon Musk brilliant or innovative just yet … bold? YES! The guy had the balls to reintroduce the electric car and made it a succes. Now let him show us he is actually innovative and brilliant by making the cars environmentally friendly as well as affordable.
@ Stefan: It seems we are mostly in agreement, but my main argument against Tesla and Musk is merely that immense (almost unending) credit is given to Tesla for “innovation” when no real innovation exists.
As you say, electric cars have been around for ages, but electric cars (up until Tesla) have actually been a hotbed of innovation. Tesla actually uses two of the most obvious and often used electric car innovations (multiple motors and motors nearer to the wheels instead of behind a drive chain). So they are getting credit for innovation in that case, that isn’t theirs at all.
There are many other innovative ideas that have been used in electric vehicles (flywheels, motors actually inside the wheels, different sized wheels, different number of wheels, etc. etc.). Many electric car companies run by interesting, cool, innovative people – especially during the 1960’s and 1970’s – have risen and fallen without being able to sell enough cars to make their business succeed. Musk makes a complete mockery of these veritable giants of innovation, by claiming he has “fixed” the electric car problem, when in fact he is shamelessly borrowing from other, smarter and more imaginative people that went before him.
That’s where my irritation at Musk comes from, and that’s why I say that Tesla merely “made electric luxury sedans for the rich.” Not because it’s an insult, but because it’s the factual crux of the matter.
The only reason Tesla was successful in making his electric cars where others were not, is that ECONOMIC equation. His success has literally nothing to do with “innovation” and everything to do with the cost/performance ratio and sales. He identified a niche market. He did NOT however “invent the first viable electric car” as many have said. Not even close.
I think I hear the sound of a grinding axe…
You seem very naive, saying that Tesla is not a car company is absurd. If they aren’t a car company how does their car rate 99/100 by consumer reports, tops for any car in all their testing. And yes their car is innovative, can show me another car with comparable refinement and precision? And lets not forget about the 17in screen with the software that runs the car. The technology used on the car is unparalleled and some of the safety features were the first of their kind. Yes, they have much higher aspirations than just building luxury cars, as evidenced by their new PowerWall system. And if you think it was as easy as saying let’s stick a huge lithium-ion battery in a car you are even more naive than I thought. To make that size battery and put it in a car while keeping performance exceptional is an amazing engineering feat. They are revolutionizing the electric car industry (and yes the entire car industry as well) and they shouldn’t fear Apple entering the car market. Tesla is making a product that is so good and extremely popular that they have a better position than Apple does to change the car industry. If they came out with a car more affordable, and I am sure they are working on it, it would shape the market in a way Apple can’t. I have a very low expectation for Apple in the car industry as well, but saying they will wipe the floor with Apple is absurd. Tesla is wiping the floor with every other car brand around and will do so with Apple if they so chose to enter the market.
I laid out my reasoning on why Tesla is not an “innovative car company” pretty well already and I get derided a lot by other commenters for going on too long about things (one on this very thread!), so I don’t really have an answer for you beyond that, and the fact that nothing you say here actually argues against anything that I have said.
You really haven’t said anything here beyond “But, but ..they are popular, and everyone loves their cars!” (which isn’t actually an argument). The closest you get to an argument is when you say that it was an “engineering feat” to make that size of a (laptop) battery and “keep performance exceptional.” But that is exactly what I was arguing in the first place. That Tesla is in fact a “battery management software/firmware company.” One key employee from Tesla, could easily take that entire “innovation” with them and probably already has.
I would add that any person buying a “home battery” from Tesla is pretty much a fool by definition considering how rapidly and how often battery technology has changed even in the last two decades. When you consider the imminent (five years max) introduction of radical new battery chemistries the mind literally boggles as to why anyone would want one.
Anyone who knows even the tiniest bit about the history and design of electric vehicles and battery technology knows all of this. Tesla is selling “electric luxury sedans” explicitly to those who don’t.
I read all your comments, they are very cool. The comments reading was very better than the post. Even if you are right, Tesla is a game changer. Before Tesla most of electric cars were small and ugly, the idea of this type of car was far, very far away from reality, just one example. We’re talking about an industry that does not innovate since it was created by Ford. The fact of being a battery / software / firmware company does not diminish their accomplishment. And
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car#Invention
Ford made the first popular car but did not by any means create the automotive industry (sorry)
He created the auto industry, the way it exists today. I’m sorry for you troll.
@Krikaoli – Stefan de Jong stated a fact which was in no way offensive. You didn’t like it and called him a troll. The only person who made a troll comment here is you.
Please leave the internet to the big boys and learn how to handle others having a different opinion to you. There’s a good lad.
Now it is a real troll… Well I expressed myself badly, I know who invented the automobile… I hope someone has understood me. And now, with your permission, I’m getting out of here and leaving this post to big boys like you… lol Stefan, I’m sorry for the troll thing. Bye bye aunt troll, I have fed you enough.
A battery company? Sure
I think jus the fact that they have managed to bring the price of $/kwh to $250 is AMAZING! The project price per kwh was only suppose to hit the $300 region in 2020.
While they may not be innovating when compared to other Fields, they are going leaps and bounds ahead of the current automotive landscape.
C’mon. You have to give Tesla credit for innovation. They do have patents for more than software/firmware. Not only that, Musk opened all their patents for his competition to build from. This is akin to Steve Jobs touring Xerox PARC. You obviously hate Tesla, but you should recognize the larger goals of Elon Musk. He’s working toward the greater good. http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-06-12/why-elon-musk-just-opened-teslas-patents-to-his-biggest-rivals
they’re not going to ‘literally’ wipe the floor with a company though are they?
Either way, I would like to see Apple enter the Automotive industry, even just to spur on more car makers to look into renewable energy cars. Having a big gas guzzling V6 or V8 in this day and age seems useless and only lines the pockets of the oil tycoons.
You guys make it sound so easy; brushing Tesla off as simply adding 1 + 1.
My observation is that Tesla cars is similar to the early days of the iPod or iPhone but in very slow motion. Amazing idea, not so good reality, and then real live product development starts to happen.
The biggest problem with all electric cars is range and public charging stations. They don’t have enough charging stations for those that want to travel long distances, especially if they want to travel in rural areas. I think the best approach is hybrid for the time being.
Lots of clueless comments so far. Tesla and Apple will be majorly symbiotic in their respective automotive efforts. Knee-jerk conclusions that they are in a poaching war are way off base. I see some good potential for Apple acquiring Tesla—at some future point in time which will be advantageous to both.
Clueless comments, or people who have thoughts on the matter which just so happen to be different to yours?
Must be quite a powerful feeling knowing that your opinion is correct and everyone else’s is rubbish eh.
I think he’s not afraid of Apple entering the car business because the car business is MASSIVE. There’s plenty of room for both Apple and Tesla. Also if Apple comes out with a electric vehicle it will only help the overall cause of electric cars. Much like there were NFC payments before ApplePay, it took ApplePay to happen for your average consumer to even consider it an option. If Apple makes a car, it pushes the whole EV market ahead. Tesla and Apple wins.
Oh, I know I’m Effing old-fashioned, but I’d like to know WHAT Apple’s plans to build an electric car are up to:
Vis.:”Speculation regarding Apple’s plans to build an electric car has been at an all-time _______ over…..”
I added the ________________.
Just what height is the speculation regarding Apple’s plans to build an electric car??
Thanks for the info….!
I think he’s right: it would be good to have other players enter the market for electric cars. Apple would bring a lot, and it would create a larger ecosystem, and add a lot more scale to the market. It makes me think of something Jobs said when asked if they could switch production to the US. He argued they could, that the wages in China aren’t such of big deal: but that the levels of expertise assembled there in one place, the assembled experience in all these plants, the managers, the ability of the plants to scale rapidly, that is what’s making China a very powerful manufacturing center. You know, like we used to be.
For those knocking tesla for being mentioned in the same article as apple, you should try driving one before you knock it. They are incredible vehicles.
Musk using the number of employees Tesla is poaching from Apple to project bravado or confidence is silly.
Tesla, aside from its truly remarkable engineering and battery technology, is really standing out with the software they are putting into their cars that puts Detroit and Germany to shame. It stands to reason that they would be hiring a lot of Apple engineers who specialize in software.
Apple, on the other hand, has the software know-how in-house. They are looking for experts in the automotive industry and that expands beyond Tesla and probably even beyond the United States.
Tesla, as impressive as they are as is, is still a small niche player in the automobile market. Apple is on a completely different level.
+1 I think your conclusion on how to interpret this article is spot on, all the rest are nice discussions but thats about it
From Wikipedia:
“Top Gear:
Tesla unsuccessfully sued British television show Top Gear for their review of the Roadster in a 2008 episode in which Jeremy Clarkson could be seen driving one around the Top Gear test track, complaining about a range of only 55 miles (89 km), before showing workers pushing it into the garage, supposedly out of charge. Tesla filed a lawsuit against the BBC for libel and malicious falsehood, claiming that two cars were provided and that at any point, at least one was ready to drive. In addition, Tesla claimed that neither car ever dropped below 25% charge, and that the scene was staged.[287][288][289][290] On October 19, 2011, the High Court in London rejected Tesla’s libel claim.[291] The falsehood claims were also struck out by February 2012, with Justice Tugendhat describing Tesla’s malicious falsehood claim as “so ‘gravely deficient’ it too could not be allowed to proceed.”[292]”
I love Apple and I love Tesla. What is the most reasonable step to do from my point of view? Them working together.
Tesla ~10,000 employees
Apple ~100,000
5:1 poaching rate favors Apple
However, Musk’s point is that there is no “poaching war”
Tesla is a niche firm that is challenging the auto industry
This I disruption is useful because the big car companies have been neutering their electric and hybrid offerings (ugly, underpowered, poor range, impractical) to protect their legacy markets.
Innovation is a combination of ideas that produces a meaningful synergy in execution
Musk realized that we will never build an electric charging infrastructure to serve aging hippies in cars built from bicycle and golf cart parts. Also, these low-end builders had no hope of being profitable.
By attacking the sport/mid-luxury niche first, he can hope to find a margin even at very low volumes.
Innovation includes financing, marketing, PR/lobbying and sales, in addition to research, design, engineering and manufacturing.
The Tesla operation is impressive on all fronts.
The result is a product people desire and the elevation of the EV concept from an impractical fantasy to an increasingly real and competitive market niche (in an enormous market overall)
I remember Apple’s ad welcoming IBM to the PC market.
Tesla’s market cap is almost a rounding error to Apple’s. I don’t know any business that really welcomes a player with Apple’s brand, quality, and hundreds of billions in cash coming into their market. It’s just Elon blustering.
In 2012 I had an interview at Apple for an “Internal tools developer” role which I ended up not getting, but the interview questions were are all car related. How would you program a sensor to handle moving cars around you while you’re banking. I was more confused by the type of questions than the actual questions themselves and didn’t feel very comfortable during the interview. After realizing that you would end up working 90 hours per week and basically have to be on call 24/7, I decided that I wouldn’t try again.